Grace-Francoise Nibizi is a Burundian women rights activist who would like to violate the taboo of menstruation among those states with the greatest levels of domestic violence on the planet.
Hilde Ousland Vandeskog is a sex researcher that comes from among the more populous nations in Europe – Norway. They have fulfilled the Abatangamuco. What would they think about those men who ceased abusing their wives? Is their formulation operating in Burundi? And is it exported?
After hearing the story along with the testimonies of this Abatangamuco at the first two episodes of Cry Like a Lady, in this and at another one we talk about their role in achieving gender equality, but also what their expertise can teach to everybody on earth.
He’s joined in conversation with Nibizi, who established an institution to enable underprivileged girls in Burundi, and from Vandeskog, writer of the very first global research on the Abatangamuco communities in Lesotho.
Cry Like a Lady is a Euronews first series and tradition devoted to men defying centuries-old stereotypes in five different African nations.
For every country, we bring you two-story episodes – a complete reportage on the floor, done in cooperation with local journalists, divide into two elements – and 2 roundtables, bringing along the African American and the European viewpoints.
Cry Like a Boy is printed every 2 weeks. In case you haven’t listened to our prior episodes regarding the Abatangamuco, a bunch of guys from rural Burundi who chose to stop beating their wives, then please, do this in the player below.
About this episode
The project began in her garage, where she educated 20 underprivileged single moms on skills for functioning in the hospitality market.
SaCoDé is the only organization in Burundi that makes washable and reusable menstrual pads and supplies them to college women at no cost. It’s also the only organization in Africa that creates them contemporary with or without panties.
You may read her report on the Abatangamuco she composed in 2012 in PRIO.org. You could even have a look at her present work at the site of the UiO Institute of Health and Society.
Abatangamuco is an organization by Care International, conducted by guys in rural areas of Burundi. They do not have a web site, however, they have a sizable following in the nation.
This incident of Cry Like a Lady is hosted by Khopotso Bodibe at Johannesburg.
To learn more on Cry Like a Lady, a Euronews first series and podcast visit www.euronews.com/programs/cry-like-boy to locate opinion pieces, articles, and videos on this issue.
Share with us your stories of how you challenged and changed your perspective about what it means to be a guy, utilize #crylikeaboy.
The total script of this episode
Khopotso Bodibe: Welcome to Cry Like a Boy, a Euronews first show and podcast that investigates the pressure for a guy can harm societies and families. Stay with us as we journey throughout the African continent to meet guys who withstand centuries-old stereotypes.
I’m Khopotso Bodibe with you out of Johannesburg in South Africa. In this event, we’ll research a neighborhood in Burundi in which a group of guys executes a revolution against gender-based violence throughout the theater, changing mentalities, and combating domestic violence. They’re known as the Abatangamuco, “the individuals who glow light” in Kirundi.
In the previous two episodes of the series, we observed how couples enjoy Innocent and Capitoline profited in their neighborhood efforts. And because of this event today, we’re united by Grace- Françoise Nibizi, who reside in Burundi. Miss Nibizi is a nurse by profession but also includes a bachelor’s degree in social and financial management and several years of operating experience in global humanitarian and development businesses such as UNIFEM, UN, DPE, UNHCR, CIW, and also the European Union.
She is a sex specialist at Oslo University. Her most recent work is on cultural barriers to knowledge transfer in development support and the effect on the realization of their SDGs about sex and health.
For every country we’re researching in this collection of documentaries, we’ll be in conversation with two guests, one from Europe and yet another African, to help us put into perspective the reports you’ll have heard before. Meanwhile, let us get our dialogue with our guests began.
Grace-Francoise Nibizi: I am quite happy to be here.
Khopotso Bodibe: It is wonderful to have you about. We’re documenting this podcast under particular conditions amid the present Covid-19 pandemic, which demands social distancing. Francoise is currently in Bujumbura and Hilde is currently in Oslo. In the Abatangamuco episode, we met with these guys who at the neighborhood level want to change things using theater to denounce what’s wrong. Hilde, you left a study on this in 2011. Can you tell us about your expertise?
Hilde Ousland Vandeskog: Yes, I had been commissioned really by Care International in Norway, that encouraged the Abatangamuco to perform a research-based test of the job, and in the time I was operating in the Peace Research Institute in Oslo. And to be frank, I did not know anything regarding the Abatangamuco or roughly Burundi before taking on that mission. Plus it turned out to be a very type of perspective-shifter of an adventure to visit Burundi and fulfill these guys in a circumstance in which I rather expected very conventional sex roles to materialize. And to listen to them discuss the way they’d essentially realized that the destructiveness of a number of the type of facets of masculinity they had grown up within their families, in their development viewpoints, in their broader communities, and themselves as human beings. It was intriguing and it is to date among the most intriguing parts of academic work I have done.
Khopotso Bodibe: Would you believe that the Abatangamuco could be a part of those solutions that European nations could adopt?
Hilde Ousland Vandeskog: in a lot of ways, yes, I believe that they can. Because one of those things that struck me using all the Abatangamuco was the way they managed to sort of strategy their ingrained thoughts about what it means to become a true person. They could question to approach that with a sort of lens from the interior. And also to look in: OK, but when what I understand is that for being a true man, I want to beat my wife up, how can that impact my spouse and my neighborhood? Is this great for us?
And that skill they must get that self-reflection and to question these standards they grew up together, I believe is such a huge learning stage and an approach to not only toxic masculinity but harmful sex roles in a larger sense and Europe too.
Françoise, allow me to bring you to the conversation here. You’re Knowledgeable about this Abatangamuco. What’s your opinion of this group and their attempts? Do you believe they’re creating an impact?
As you stated, I understand about the Abatangamuco since the organization which I developed, I based in 2010 was in partnership with Care International because 2014. And that’s why I know quite well about the Abatangamuco motion.
What they’re doing is quite nice because the primary task they’ve set themselves is to challenge conventional gender expectations within their communities through personal modifications and testimonies. And what they’re doing is quite well because all of the sex mishaps or gender-based violence we’re undergoing in Burundi are frozen in our society.
But unfortunately, they’re just in these zones in which Care International is functioning, which means just in eight states and Burundi has 18 states. I can inform you they have not been understood by all of the communities in these states, which I wish they are known they can expand their actions in most states. However, what they’re doing, their principal job, and their principal function, what they’re doing is quite wonderful.
Khopotso Bodibe: You state they are busy in eight states from nearly 20, the nation, that Burundi, has your state out of the eight countries in which they’re busy, not all communities are conscious of the category, but in which they operate. What successes can you see? What type of effect are you viewing that’s noticeable? What are folks in these communities stating about this group?
Grace-Francoise Nibizi: Among the successes is where they’re functioning, rural Burundian guys who’d started to question their traditional methods of life, which they’re beginning to question their masculinity. Since in Burundi, all gender-based violence, even as I view it, is rooted in our civilization, so gender-based violence is accepted as a standard thing. And most men did not view it as something quite awful, but how the Abatangamuco was in a position to operate and sensitize and educate guys, today they’re changing their method of communication with their wives, which is a great thing indeed.
It suggests that this is a job that may be replicated throughout the nation. We need a great deal of those interventions in Burundi, not just in the eight states where they’re working.
I have a question for the two of you. From the very first episode of our show, we learned concerning poisonous masculinity, which describes the thoughts, the standards, the attitudes which we raise boys about to believe that men and boys are dominant, which violence is the best way to solve problems, that boys and men are superior to girls and so forth and so forth. What’s the function of toxic masculinity in sexual violence or marital violence in your respective states? Allow me to begin with you, Hilde.
Hilde Ousland Vandeskog: In Norway, we see that domestic violence is to a huge extent, a part of intimate partner violence, even in which girls are vulnerable to violence, sometimes even murdered by spouses, husbands. And that which we do notice is that lots of these cases come about as soon as the lady is possibly threatening to leave or there’s been a type of occasion whereby the person’s thought of himself as the guy is in a way jeopardized.
And I, I believe that’s the tragedy of those elements of masculinity that we refer to as poisonous. For many guys, the logical reply or the psychological reaction to feeling belittled or from management is going to be to make use of aggression or violence to reinsert masculinity.
If I could contrast with a case I know better since, paradoxically I am in Norway, however, I do not research the context, however, I didn’t research from Colombia about a decade ago to the problem regarding landmines and individuals being forced to flee their residence, their houses in the countryside due to landmines and at the households that had fled out of rural context and to the city.
It had been much easier for girls than for men to have jobs because, you know they could acquire national providers, a number of them would get work in the garment sector. It was much tougher for guys. Therefore there was a change at which the girls in lots of these families became breadwinners. And that which was noticed there was in parallel with this, you would see an upsurge in domestic violence, that had been correlated with those guys feeling like their role as breadwinners were removed from them and that was something which triggered reactions of violence somehow. And that, again, to me, is only a tragic effect of toxic masculinity where men feel as though they’re not permitted to not be accountable for
Khopotso Bodibe: They believe emasculated, that is exactly what I hear you talking about.
Khopotso Bodibe: When I will throw this question in the beginning personally, Françoise, if you’re able to speak to us regarding the function of toxic masculinity in gender-based childbirth or marital violence in Burundi, what would be the observations about that?
Grace-Francoise Nibizi: the part of toxic masculinity from gender-based violence is that it generates very poor, really bad expectations of the feminine being passive, as submissive, as weak, as helpless, as determined on men, and that I believe isn’t correct.
And actually, that is why I see what the Abatangamuco do is so good because their principal goal in their actions, even in their displays is to aid guys, as many guys as possible to realize that actions like domestic violence [are bad]. And a majority in Burundi, as I said, in nearly all income-generating pursuits and families work is done by girls, and girls are excluded from all decision-making. They aren’t permitted all chances for attaining financial and societal advancement.
So all people believe them as the effect of toxic masculinity. And that is why the Abatangamuco is extremely challenging those values and behaviors of sex roles through their testimonies. I want the Abatangamuco could cover the entire nation, not just Burundi, Africa, even Europe since I feel it is the same thing all around the world.
Khopotso Bodibe: Françoise and Hilde, the two of you, your answers to the question about toxic masculinity bring me to the question, that can be: achieving gender equality or gender justice is a struggle for the majority of states, which you’ve alluded to on your answers. Which are the principal obstacles in your opinion concerning the success of gender equality? I will begin with you, Hilde. From the context of Europe, in the context of Norway, in which you established, what exactly are you seeing as the barriers there which are preventing the success of gender justice?
Hilde Ousland Vandeskog: I believe that it’s cemented sex functions anywhere you go, indeed, is the largest challenge to gender equality, since our sex roles, they produce those expectations about the way that it’s okay to be a person and a lady.
And that produces these blind areas in which it gets so tough to ask questions and also to find that the injustice of things which are moving on. Also, you know, even though sex equality has come a lengthy way in Norway when compared with the rest of the Earth, Norway is performing quite well indeed, there’s still this huge gap in what is expected from a female than a guy. Like, how is a girl expected to act? What type of occupation is she expected to possess? And even if she is allowed to possess all of the other tasks, even though she is permitted to act in any other manner, she’s still expected to do this, that, and another.
And it is the same for guys. So, I suggest, in that, exactly like overarching degree, the simple fact that we insist on dividing the world into these two decks and assigning those very specific expectations concerning the way to act and what you are expected to be good at and what you expected to become awful at, I believe that is what is holding us back around the world.
Grace-Francoise Nibizi: In Burundi, the principal obstacle is linked to how a vast majority of all Burundian women are knowledgeable. More than 70 percent of Burundian women are not educated. So they do not even understand their faith since they simply believe in their own culture. And that civilization has a lot of damaging norms. And among these is that poisonous masculinity.
As education, sensitization, advocacy, must be covered by monetary means, which can be restricted in my perspective. These are the two chief obstacles. Girls aren’t educated, meaning that they truly don’t understand their faith. They consider in culture. It is very unfortunate.
I can provide you an example associated with inheritance. And when we moved to do research, we realized that nearly all individuals that are contrary to that law were girls. And for me, those girls were against since they couldn’t think profoundly and broadly to find that the effects of not being inherited. Simply think the cultural standards and a number of the standards are extremely harmful.
Thanks for sharing your time. Stay tuned to hear more from our clients at the next half of the interview to be aired two weeks away from today.
This series was created together with me Khopotso Bodibe. I am a journalist, I’m a sex activist, I am a communications pro focussing on growth issues, especially gender issues and human rights. Particular thanks to Lory Martinez along with the studio Ochenta for helping us create this podcast under particular conditions.
To learn more on Cry Like a Lady, a Euronews first show and podcast, visit www.euronews.com/programmes/cry-like-boy to locate opinion pieces, articles, and videos on the subject.
[00:19:41] Follow us Twitter @Euronews is our manager and on Instagram we’re @Euronews. tv. Share with us your personal stories of how you challenged and changed your opinion on what it means to be a guy. Utilize #CryLikeaBoy. If you’re a French speaker that the podcast can be available in French.